Students' and Mentors' Perspectives on the
Distributed Mentor Project
In this section we present findings about the perspectives and the experience that the DMP participants had as undergraduate Computer Science majors prior to their participation in the program. This background data is essential as it provides a context with which to understand the nature and the scope of the impact of the program on these women.
Virtually all of the DMP participants whom we interviewed from the 1994, 1995, and 1996 program years, expressed an awareness of the lack of women in the field of CS and discussed the impact of this on their experience as undergraduate CS majors. All of the women interviewed were affected in some way by the lack of women in the field and/or by aspects of the dominant culture of CS that were perceived to be related to the predominance of men in the field. What differed was the way in which these women were affected and the degree. In a few cases women discussed feeling like there were ways in which the lack of women had positive outcomes for them.
A. Women CS majors viewed as a novelty by peers
Some of these women felt that they stood out as unusual as undergraduate CS majors because of the lack of women in the field. Many of them discussed that the common reaction when they told their peers that they were majoring in CS was one of surprise or shock because they, as women, did not appear to fit the image of a computer science person. In the following interview excerpts these women discussed the reaction of their peers.
I: Do you think that there's a stereotypical computer science major at all?
R: Yeah. People are still surprised when they find out I'm a computer science major.
I: Why is that?
R: I'll be like with -- my roommates or something will say, "This is [student's name]. She's a computer science major. Do you believe it?" Or, "Guess what her major is. Oh, wow." And even my other friend, this woman that I had graduated with, she said she'd go to a party or something and people would introduce her as, "So-and-so, who did this and such with computers." It was kind of a novelty. People are just kind of surprised that you're doing that.
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R: People are always shocked when I tell them what my major is. (laughs) The standard response is, "Oh really?!"
I: What do you say then?
R: I say, "Yes, I am!"
I: Is that offensive at all to you, or is it just like, "Well, whatever?"
R: No, they're not like, "Oh my god, how could you possibly be that?," but I guess it's not the first thing that would come into your mind when they meet me.
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When I tell people that I'm in computer science they kind of have to do a double take. Like you know, "Why are you in computer science?" Or I commonly get asked why did I choose it or how, or whatever and I just say, "Well, because I like it. It's easy for me to do Math and all that's easy for me to do." But if a man were to say, "I'm going into computer science," they wouldn't think twice about it. So that's just the real obvious example for me, just real basic thing there. Or I'll tell people that I want to go to grad school and they'll ask me, "Why?" You know for a man to go to grad school it's kind of expected, "Well you need to get a better job, so you need to go to grad school to get a better job." Well that's not why I'm doing it, so...
B. Feeling as though they are more visible as women in CS: Intimidating for some, beneficial for others
Most of the women interviewed indicated that they became acutely aware of the lack of women in the field through their experience in their CS classes. Many of them described how they were often in classroom situations in which they were the only woman in their CS courses and recounted a range of responses to this situation.
That is one thing that I liked about the program was I liked the idea that they were trying to get more people into computer science because you can really tell in computer science that it's typically been a man's world and especially when you go in and there are only, like several classes where there has been me and another girl in the class. So, you can really tell, you know, they are really male-oriented.
Many students felt intimidated by the lack of women in CS classes, particularly in their first few CS classes. They expressed that because they were more visible as women that their comments and questions were more likely to be more noticed and remembered by faculty and other students. This caused them to feel self-conscious and to be more careful in asking questions and participating in class out of a concern for appearing stupid.
I: How did you feel about the small number of women [in your CS&CE classes]?
R: Well it was pretty intimidating when I took one class my first semester junior year where I was the only female in the class.
I: Oh no.
R: Yeah it was intimidating at first because I didn't really know any of the guys either 'cause they were mostly seniors who I hadn't met yet. So yeah that was intimidating. [Laughter]
I: All right, just for the reasons we talked about before?
R: Yeah, I was the only female and that I think, yeah that made me stand out a lot. So it was easy to call on me, or I stood our in the class.
I: Did the professor call on you more then?
R: Well I don't think he did, it just felt like he could -- I couldn't really hide.
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It's somewhat intimidating because I'm more hesitant to ask questions in that environment than if it's more 50-50 [female/male]. I think I'm a little hesitant because [I wonder], "Well, am I asking a stupid question?" Or, "Am I asking something I really don't know and need to ask?" It depends on the class.
Viewing themselves as representative of all women
A related reason that many of these women felt intimidated in CS classes was that they felt that in classes with so few women that they stood out more as women than as individuals. This made some of the them feel as though they were viewed as a representative of all women in their classes. For some this felt like a burden making them hyperaware of their behavior out of concern that they might make all women appear stupid. A mentor discussed how she had observed this type of dynamic in her classes.
R: When I think about my women students there are a lot of times when there is only one woman in the class or maybe two. So when you're in a room of forty and you're the only woman you can't help but feel that way.
I: You can't just be a person because you stand out as different?
R: You're not just an individual. The guys will see you as a woman.
In the following interview excerpt a participant described the reasons behind her fear of talking in classes where she was one of the only women.
I: So if there are a lot of men in the class they tend to overpower the class?
R: Yeah, I think so. Sometimes I'm afraid to say something because it might be something stupid, and then everybody would look at me. Being, for example, the only woman in the class, I'd even feel even more stupid. Like, I will make all the women feel stupid. You see what I'm trying to say?
I: Are you saying you're kind of a representative?
R: Right. If I say something wrong, then they might think, "Yeah, she said something stupid, something wrong. All women are the same," that kind of stuff. So I usually, if I wasn't sure of something I'd try to keep quiet.
Benefits of, or lack of concern about, visibility due to being one of the only women in classes
At least one woman experienced the visibility related to the lack of women in the field as a positive thing because she was more easily noticed and remembered by faculty and students. This motivated her to push herself to do well in classes.
R: [CS is] such a male populated field, or major.
I: Do you see any down sides of being in a major like that?
R: No. In this particular, in this case, I don't know what it will be like working, but in terms of having been in the major, it was really good. I know that I was noticed by the students, and by the teacher more, which helps because otherwise I - often I tend to be very quiet, and I won't try to get the attention of the teacher. I won't go and talk to them all the time, but I was pushed into that more, and I was pushed into them being more aware of me, which made me push myself more to do well. Because I know that they see what I'm doing and that they're aware of what I'm doing. If you're in a really big class it's easy to get lost. But if they're if they're aware of me, I have a much harder time blowing anything off, it pushed me a lot more, and it gave me much better relationships with my professors, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise...a lot of times [other people encouraged me to go see profs], but once I got there, they were going to remember me more often than a random guy who walked in one time. It's interesting that I've actually talked to male friends who sometimes are very frustrated because they won't be remembered. They're like, "Oh, he doesn't know who I am." But I'm not going to have to worry about that!
A few women openly discussed how they were indifferent to the fact that there were very few women in their CS classes and departments.
[The lack of females in my CS&E classes] is not something like I said that I notice all the time or that I think it really intimidates me. Every once in a while I look around and go, "Hey, there aren't that many women around here." But I mean I didn't think [that all of the graduate students I interacted with at my mentor's university were male] was weird at the time. I mean it's computer science. And I think the women are more slowly coming into the field.
C. Some actively questioned why there were so few women: Do I belong in this field?
Some women described how they had actively questioned what the relative lack of women in the field of CS indicated about the field and their participation in it. They felt different, and some questioned whether they belonged. The following interview excerpt is representative of this set of respondents.
I: Do you think that your experience as an undergraduate in CS would have been different had you been male?
R: Probably. I'm not sure how, but it probably would have. Somehow I think I wouldn't have felt so different, you know. You walk into a classroom, and there's not a lot of women - maybe one more woman, and sometimes none. You just can't help but feel different. You're like, "Gee something's wrong." Or, "Why aren't more women here, what's happening?" I feel like, perhaps sometimes I don't belong.
Despite these lingering questions about whether they fit into a predominantly male field, some women indicated that grade-related success in these classes helped them to feel better and served to counterbalance some of their concerns about whether they should be in the field.
I mean, just because I walk into a room and there's no other women doesn't mean - you know, nobody's asking me to feel differently, I just feel different. I feel like perhaps sometimes I don't belong. Or it sometimes makes me wonder about the future of women in this field and things like that. But at the same time, it might seem paradoxical, but...I'm one of the top students. And then it makes me feel very good. It doesn't make me feel as bad as when I walked in the first day of class.
D. Feeling like they have to prove their ability in CS because they are women: Factors which contributed to this perception
Most of the participants discussed that they felt they had to prove themselves as a woman in CS. Many of the women who did not openly discuss issues of intimidation in classes or questions about whether they belonged in the field of CS, did state that they felt that they had to prove themselves as women in the field. These women discussed that they worked harder in their classes to make sure that they gained the respect of the faculty members and their peers because they assumed that as a woman in a male-dominated field they would not be taken seriously until they had proven their abilities. An additional factor that may have contributed to the feeling that they needed to prove themselves, was the perception that they had different abilities and a different approach to computers than their male peers.
Some women indicated that this feeling of having to prove themselves was much stronger during their first couple years of CS classes. In the following interview excerpt a woman discussed how initially she had worked hard to prove herself, but she now felt accepted in the CS department.
[My experience in CS&CE has] been mostly similar [to another male student's experience]. Except in the first couple years, he did not have the impetus to like really try to shine in his computer classes, because he didn't feel that it was something that he really needed to make sure that he was noticed by the faculty, or that it was absolutely necessary that he get all A's in his computer classes, or really do outstanding work, either to be noticed by faculty or just to be the best in the class. Whereas I did. I'm sure it was at least partially because I wanted to sort of prove that I could be as good as any of these other people in here, even though I'm a female. Or just the fact that I just feel like I can prove that I can be as good as anyone else in here . . . . It's hard for me to think now because I think of all of us as big family, and I can't see how any male/female differences played into that. But if I really think hard about freshman year, it probably did, because I think about, like I said, there were two other freshman, or two other girls in the honors program, on my floor freshman year in the dorm who were in computer science, and we worked. We worked really hard, and we worked together to be the best.
She went on to say,
By the time you get to the end of your second year, when you are going to walk into a computer science class . . . you know you're going to know everyone in the room. There's only going to be 8 or 9 of you. You're going to sit down the first day and put your feet up on the desk in front of you and start talking to the person next to you, and you're never going to have worry if you miss a class. You know who you're going to get notes from, and uh, you know, if you, if you bring food you bring enough for everyone. And it's a very congenial atmosphere. I remember my first class in computer science, the first semester you only have one, and you're still a pretty spread out group. And that's very different and there was only one other female in that class. And I totally aced that class. And so that was my goal. And you know, being a freshman level class, of course, it's possible. So that was what was important to me -- was sort of to prove to myself and to other people that I was a real serious student. But by the time you get to the upper level classes it's totally relaxed. You know, everybody knows everybody else, and you've had this teacher for two or three other classes before this, so they know what to expect from you too.
Some women discussed how they had to develop strategies to be accepted by their male peers in order to be able to work with them. One student recounted how difficult it was to get accepted and connected with peers. In the following interview excerpt she discussed the strategies that she used to prove herself.?
By working with the professor, that was one of the things that got me in, because people started to instantly know my work, and then they would hang around with me and they'd vouch for me -"Ok, she knows what she's doing" -- and then I started getting in groups. Then once you get in good groups, then you all feed off of that energy, and then you go...[This was] before the mentoring project. Had I got into the mentoring project like a year earlier, oh, I'd be set! Would have been totally set!...I would have gotten connected that much sooner, but it took me that long to get, you know, get into position.
There were several factors that contributed to these women feeling as though they had to prove themselves as computer science majors. Some were related to the culture of the discipline of CS, whereas others, such as reactions to affirmative action, were related to broader cultural issues.
1. Having to be on guard: Perception that they were judged more critically because they were women in a predominantly male field
Some women discussed how they felt that they were judged more harshly by their male peers. As a result they had to work hard to overcome the perception that they were not capable of doing the work and the expectation that they would not do well. In the following three excerpts women discussed having to be on their guard to keep from "slipping up" and being seen as "stupid:"
I: Do you think that influences you, in maybe, in anything you do? Just having so few females around?
R: Sometimes it makes me work a little harder because I feel like I'm trying to prove something. Like, I've had people treat me like I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm a woman, at least I think that's why they are treating me that way, and so, then it makes me just have to show 'em, that I do know what I'm doing.
I: So, when you say you work harder, what does that mean? Like, getting better grades, or --
R: Yeah, I guess I like, yeah, trying to do the best I can. I guess, yeah, in school that would mean grades, or getting the project to work, or anything like that.
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I mean I've had enough male friends who have no problem with like making you feel dumb if you say something dumb. And maybe it's the group of friends I have, you know, you stay on your guard and it's like, survival of the fittest and the wittiest and things like that...but I definitely have felt like I want to prove myself as a woman and as a woman in the field of computers. I certainly wouldn't always be trying to impress, but at least always trying to make sure that I didn't make a silly impression on them. But as I said, no one's ever made the slightest indication that I wasn't qualified or you know motivated enough or anything. But, it's just, you know (pause ) there's certainly something...
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R: You've got to learn how to work together too, and if you don't - if you're not well respected by your classmates - a lot of times they just look at women, and women ask [questions in] a certain way. Like, we don't cry out the answer in class. You've probably seen it over the years.
I: Especially if women don't know the answer perfectly.
R: Yeah, guys will go out on a limb all the time if they don't know it, but if a woman comes up with a wrong answer, she knows she's going to be criticized a lot more than a guy coming out with the wrong answer.
I: Because she's a representative?
R: Exactly. They say, "She's dumb," when in reality they're doing pretty well, but they don't work in the open forum very well. I would go to TAs and teachers after class to really talk, because then I felt more comfortable. Because if they perceived you as being stupid, well, then your dead as far as getting in a good group.
I: So you don't want to talk because you might be perceived as stupid, but if you don't talk then people don't think you know what you're doing.
R: Exactly, so you're going to have to somehow talk with them in class to demonstrate you know what's going on.
2. Perception that they may have different abilities and a different approach as women in the field of CS
Underlying the feeling that as women they had to prove themselves in the field of CS was the perception that they did not have the natural ability in CS that they attributed to males. In addition, for some their seemed to be the perception that women came to the field with a different degree of experience and possibly a different type of interest in computers. Because of the lack of women in the field it may have been that what was often categorized as the predominantly male approach was viewed as the standard approach to CS. Again for some women this perception made them question either their participation in the field and/or increased the pressure for them to prove themselves in the field.
a. Feeling like they have to prove themselves because of the perception that males have more innate ability in CS
Some women expressed that, either they believed or that others believed, that males had more innate ability in the field and that this was a major factor in the perception that they had to prove themselves as women in the field of CS. In the following interview excerpt a participant discussed this perception of superior male ability in CS and how as a result it is assumed that women will not do well in the field.
R: It seemed that the men [in my department], probably just because they were more interested understood it a lot better. It seemed more innate in them to pursue computer science.
I: Hmm, what do you mean by that?
R: Just that, it was something that came naturally to them, this interest in computer science, and so that kind of translated directly into performing well, and the women it was more like, "Well, I'm a woman in computer science. I'm a novelty." You know, there isn't this assumption that I'm going to do well, or something.
I: Oh, really?
R: Yeah, I mean, not that people were saying, "Hey, you're a woman. You're not going be able to do computer science." Just that, it's a lot, I mean you just don't expect women, I mean if you think of computer science, then you think of a man.
I: Is there any way that that gets communicated in a class, or is it just there?
R: No, it, it gets communicated by the fact that are [not] many women.
b. Perception that as women they take a different approach to CS than their male counterparts: Task/grade orientation vs. hackers
Related to these women's beliefs about the natural ability of males in CS was the observation by many of these women that they approached computer science in a way which differed from their male counterparts. They discussed how many male CS majors were "hackers" for whom computers were "a way of life" and for whom ability in CS came "naturally." By contrast, these women often described themselves as having to work harder because it didn't come naturally to them. Furthermore, they described themselves as more interested in computers as a tool by which they could accomplish a task. Males seemed to feel passionately about computers and felt the desire to spend a lot of time on computers. These women felt less excitement about computers in and of themselves and did not want to spend the majority of their free time working on them. It is important to note that our sample did include a few women who were self-described "hackers" and therefore did not feel that their approach to computers differed from their male counterparts.
In the following interview excerpts women who did not consider themselves "hackers" explained their conception of the stereotypic, male computer science major and his approach to the discipline. They usually discuss this male approach in contrast to their approach as women:
R:. It was sort of a bias because I'm not a hacker, and for the most part I think females are less likely to be hackers than males.
I: By "hacker" you mean just plugging around with computers trying to find weird things, that kind of thing?
R: Yeah, just sort of playing with computers - you know, sitting at home playing with them all the time. I don't do that, but I'm still a good programmer. I don't have that sort of attitude that I play with this stuff all the time. I think part of it is this mentality that the hacker is a teenage male who sits in front of his computer all the time and that makes him a better programmer, which isn't necessarily true, but it also is sort of - works for the bias thing.
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I: So he would be the stereotypical "computer science major?"
R: Yeah. He kept just a real simple program just to do something with numbers and make them spit out or sort them a certain way, and our professor would have a student demonstrate it. He'd go up, and his would just sing and dance. Lights would flash, and he'd sit down and stuff. But he was almost stereotypical also because he just did all these amazing things that none of us - and we just tried to do the assignments and get through what's there, and he's just doing these incredible things, and we're like, "Oh my god!"
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R: I think that a lot of the computer scientists out there are computer scientists because they just like computers. They think they're neat. I mean, I remember basically the men in my computer science class always talking about cool things that they did with their program, and you know, what cool output it produced. I mean they always applied these adjectives to it like "neat" or "cool" or "awesome" to their programs, or their code, and I never felt the inclination to get that excited about this code I'd written. I never felt, you know, the inspiration to do that little bit extra to make it a really cool part of my program, and they did.
I: So you're saying that they described them as "neat, cool, awesome", their program, or their code, and you felt that that was somehow alien to your experience, that you wouldn't use those adjectives.
R: Definitely.
I: What adjectives would you use?
R: I guess I'm very much a practical person, and so I wrote the computer programs as concisely as possible so that they accomplished what they were supposed to accomplish. And I kind of got a sense of fulfillment if I could write a computer code that was, you know, nice-looking and compact, straightforward, not, with all these gadgets and digits everywhere.
Focus on grades may be linked to feeling the need to prove themselves: oriented towards getting good grades rather than on acquiring hands-on experience
As was suggested in the previous sections, many of the women we interviewed expressed that they were motivated to focus primarily on getting good grades during their undergraduate classes. In contrast, they observed that the male CS majors seemed more interested in gaining hands-on experience by pursuing their own interests.
I: Think of some male friend or acquaintance in computer science and engineering. How has his experience as an undergraduate been similar of different from yours? Do you see a difference?
R: Yeah, I do. I can take one - one of the guys that I was good friends with, he didn't do as well as I did in a lot of classes. He was also in a different - he was working. He was trying to work 40 hours a week, so he learned more about computers hands on. He could go through and install more hardware than I could. I pretty much stuck within the department, and he moved out into the industry a lot sooner than I did and worked in the department a lot more. His experience was a lot different. I mean, I did better in the classes than he did, but he did better in the working. He was able to find more jobs. I don't know if that's because he was a man or anything, he just went to a different area 'cause he wanted to work and make money at it, and I just wanted to get good grades and do real well in the department . . . . I don't know if that's just the way we were raised. It was just more important to me to get good grades and do well in school.
Task-orientation may be related to wanting their work to have relevance to the real world, not just wanting to play around on the computer
Some women expressed that their interests in CS were more directed toward "meaningful" applications in the real world, and that this approach differed from that of their male peers.
R: When I think of people in computer science, I think of people in MIT. You know, the ones who don't really have a social life, and whose social life revolves around the computer, and hacks all the time, and, I mean, really likes the computer itself, I mean, the physical aspects of the computer, and seeing what he or she can do with the computer. ...Just because a lot of what's done on a computer...There's no real physical results. I mean, of course there are in robotics and everything, but, that doesn't really interest me, either. ?
I: Ok, so, what is their relationship to the computer?
R: Oh, just that, that they enjoy working with the computer for the sake of working with the computer, and I like to work with things that have a sense of accomplishing, just something tangible. I can see the effect of it, in a tangible way, you know, it's meaningful.
Drawbacks of not being hackers--having less hands-on experience and feeling less qualified when entering the job market
Several women discussed that while they were in school their focus was on getting good grades, but now that they were about to graduate, or had graduated and were seeking jobs, they felt that the fact that they were not hackers would possibly put them at a disadvantage because they had less hands-on experience.
[Sometimes at my home institution people would be talking about their programs,] and you're just like you know "Shut-up, who cares, it works." And, and then I sort of, I'm starting to think like, "Well, you know that's a valuable thing in the work force," to be, you know write efficient code and do it with the least amount of overhead and things like that, that in academics if your program works that's all that matters. And I think I could have learned a thing or two if I had bothered to--well not that I was the most inefficient programmer -- but there were priorities and you know, getting it to work was first priority.
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I: You mentioned that in a lot of your classes the people have been doing computers since they were ten years old, and you know, have been basically hackers and that you hadn't done a lot of that...How has that been for you?
R: Well, its just been a drawback for me, but it is my own fault, um, I don't, I mean, I guess it just, I'm not as in to it I guess as some people that I see who are just, you know, just talking in numbers, oh, well this uh 14.4 baud whatever,{laugh} and I'm just like, "I don't care." But I don't know how, it doesn't seem that important to me to care about all sorts of little hardware things but it would have made, I guess some of my classes, it would have made me put a, sort of put a big picture together I guess. Like if I had sort of been playing with computers for a while, and then I'm taking a class on, "Well this works because of this," that I would have sort of, "Oh this all makes sense now!" You know, that type of thing. Where as here I'm just sort of learning about things, so it's hard to put them all together.
3. Pathways to CS: -- 40% of DMP participants did not enter college considering CS as a possible major
Another factor which was linked to some participants' expressed need to prove themselves was that many of them (40% of survey respondents) planned on majoring in a non-CS&E field when they entered college, and were not even considering CS&E as a possible major. They ended up choosing CS&E because of encouragement of parents/faculty or as a result of taking an introductory computer programming class as a requirement for other majors and deciding that they were interested in it. The participants who came into CS&E through these types of avenues tended to express that they felt relatively inexperienced with computers when compared to the majority of the students in their departments, and that this contributed to their feeling that they needed to prove their abilities to themselves and others.
4. Feeling as though they have to prove themselves because males are "cocky" though they actually do not always perform as well as the women
A few women expressed that some of the men in their departments were quite cocky and acted as though they knew more than other people, but they noted that these same men would often perform at a lower level in classes than other students.
I: You mentioned earlier that sometimes you felt uncomfortable asking questions in class. This was before the program. Do you generally now ask questions whenever you feel like it or offer suggestions?
R: Yeah, pretty much. There's a few guys here in the CS department that are real [into it]. I'm not that kind of a person. I'm a good student, I get good grades, but sometimes they start talking about stuff that I don't even understand. It's like, "Gee, I don't want to ask any questions because they'll think I'm stupid or something, but maybe not." Then those guys end up getting really low grades. I'm not sure how they do it, so I'm not sure where I stand as far as comparing myself to all those guys that are supposed to be real good. They get lower grades, I get high grades, but then when they speak they seem to know everything, so I don't know. Perhaps they don't work as hard as I do.
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I: [During your first interview] you said that -- you sort of described a real sort of collegial setting with your classmates and you said that being in a lab is kind of like being with a group of your big brothers, and you're all kind of in there together. And I was just wondering why it feels like they're your big brothers?
R: {Laughter} Oh, that's a good question. Well, most of them are older than me. I guess that might have been why I said big. Hmmm. That is a good question. {Laughter} 'Cause not all of them are older than me ... I guess because most of them, like I said are the type of people that have been playing with computers for a while, so I feel like they know a lot more. But sometimes they really don't. They just sort of talk about it more, and make it seem like they know more, which is just annoying. So I guess maybe that's why I sort of look up to them, is because they think that they know a lot, but that may or may not be true.
5. Ambivalence about affirmative action for women in the field of CS: Benefits with a price
Both mentors and students discussed affirmative action as a compounding issue in relation to having to prove themselves as women in a male dominated field. The participants discussed the fact that as women in a predominantly male field, they would possibly receive preference when applying for jobs. However, they were ambivalent because they preferred being rewarded for their capabilities and for the quality of their work. A participant discussed this issue in relation to her experience in applying for a summer internship.
R: When I was at [a company for] my onsite interview, I was the only female in a group of about 10 who were standing around waiting to go in.
I: Oh, really. For your interview.
R: Yeah, that was pretty bizarre. I hadn't noticed it, and then I looked around, and I was like, "Wait a minute."
I: And what thoughts go through your mind when you say, "Wait a minute"?
R: First I think this is interesting, and then I get a little bit hopeful 'cause I think, "Hey, maybe they'll give me a better chance or they're going to have themselves a lawsuit."
I: So, it can be to your benefit? So, it, but it doesn't make you in any way say, "Wait a minute. Why am I the only one?"
R: No, it just makes me wish that there were more people [more women] there.
She went on to discuss her ambivalence about receiving preferential treatment because she is a woman.
R: I hate to say this because it sounds -- I'm not real big on women's issues, but I don't like using it as affirmative action and things. I want to be accepted because I'm smart, I'm intelligent, I'm going to do a good job, but I think it will actually, the fact that I am a woman, get me into some jobs.
I: Ok. How have you heard this?
R: Maybe just because they need women in that area. It is kind of a novelty thing sometimes. I think it might help me a little bit 'cause they're kind of surprised, and it will be - I may be remembered more.
I: 'Cause you'll stand out a little bit?
R: Yeah.
A mentor discussed the issue of preferential programs for women in terms of the DMP, highlighting the issue of the potentially negative impact on women's confidence.
I: So why, if at all, do you think it's important that the DMP was open to female undergraduates only?
R: I've thought about this! Because it's certainly a question that people have asked me. I think that if we really want to raise the proportion, then we have to do things that are targeted at women. I think that whenever we open something up to both men and women, the men end up swamping out the program, and we don't get the targeted effect that we were hoping for. But I have a lot of mixed feelings on this.
I: Well, tell me more about that.
R: Well, I mean I guess I have certainly had situations where people have told me that I just got xyz accomplishment because I'm a woman. So I've always had mixed feelings about whether or not affirmative action really helps the people it's intended to help, independent of whether it hurts other people.
I: Right.
R: To me there's a question of whether the confidence issues, of sitting around wondering whether you got this fellowship, or this job, because you're a woman, are better or worse than the fact that you actually get the fellowship or the job.
Many of the women discussed how their male peers had reacted to both their participation in programs that were targeted for women, and to the possibility that they would receive preferential treatment for admission to graduate school. At times, their reactions made these women question their abilities and performance in the field, potentially undermining their success through the suggestion that they did not earn their way in this field, but that they had to be let in through the back door, so to speak. In the following interview excerpts participants discussed how they reacted to these sorts of comments by male peers.
R: Some of the men, I've actually had some of the guys say things about this, like, "Well, you know, they couldn't even apply for this [the DMP]." You know what I mean? But it's not like they went and applied to all the ones they could! The big jerks. It's like, "Oh, you're in this thing only for women." I'm like, "You know what? There's like ten million of them, that everybody can apply to. Did you apply to that? I don't think so."
I: Yeah, how do you feel when people say that?
R: It hurts my feelings. And it does make me feel like, you know, it does exactly what they're trying to make it do. Which is, to put me down. I mean, it does. It makes me think like, "Well, yeah, I guess it was only for women."
* * * * * * * * * * * *
I: So, how did that make you feel? I mean, how do you feel about that, that there's so few women?
R: All the guys in my class have always been supportive and nice but I mean, but there's still remarks and stuff just because the program that I was in, the Distributed Mentor Project. They were just a little like, "Oh you only got it because...," I mean they couldn't apply, it was only for women, and they made some remarks. And the same with like going to graduate school, they kind of sometimes make me feel like you know just because I'm a woman I could get into these kinds of programs but I think that after four years I've proven myself to them. But I don't know, it seems like they don't have to prove themselves to anybody.
I: Does that worry you?
R: No, I mean it just, I think it just goes with the major.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
I don't mind being one of the only females or whatever, it doesn't really make any difference to me. But what I hate is when I would be talking to my boyfriend about getting into grad school or something he'll go, "Oh, you'll have no problem, you're a girl in computer science." It's like, "I really hate it when you say that because I know I'm damn good enough. It doesn't matter whether I'm female or not. I don't need that gender thing, and I don't like you saying that I do." It's like, "I don't like you saying that I can go further in jobs easier than you because I'm a female. Besides all that, I'm going to make 75% of what you make. Don't give me any of that. I don't want to hear it." That's the thing that irritates me, is that the fact that there are few women makes a lot of the men go, "Oh, well, you can get such and so because you're female," and I hate that. I really hate that because I know that I can perform at a level that anybody sets for me.
One participant discussed how she used the strategy of hiding the fact that the DMP was only for women from her male peers. This way she could earn their respect without fueling their judgment and potential resentment.
R: If I told people, "Oh, I've got this summer project," I would just say, "I got a grant." I wouldn't necessarily say that it was because it was mentoring women. I would leave that part out. I would just be very brief, 'cause it's tough enough when, some guys don't think you belong.
I: And then for you to get a grant because you're a woman?
R: Yeah...I think there might have been some jealousy on the part of other guys that wanted to maybe work with professors over the summer, and how did I get into it. I think they felt, "Oh, you got into it? Wow!" So then I got a measure of respect which might have been eroded had they found out why I did and they would have made their own conclusion.
E. Concerned about the lack of women in the field when deciding whether or not to pursue a career in CS
A few women responded to the lack of women in the field by openly expressing doubt or concern about going on to grad school in CS. The following interview excerpts highlight the nature of their concerns.
I: Do you have any concerns about graduate school?
R: Yeah, I mean the whole ratio kind of women and men kind of thing is a little- just being at [my home institution] I mean there's definitely a lot more men than women. I mean there's only, there's two of us graduating -- two women graduating as [computer science majors], two or three.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
I: Do you have any concerns about going into computer science, especially going for a Ph.D.?
R: Well yeah, I'm worried I won't make it that far and that I won't have whatever intelligence or capabilities it takes to think up the thesis idea and write it and do it. I'm certainly not looking forward to listening to football talk for the rest of my life.
I: How does that fit in?
R: Well, if women are only 5% of academic faculty in engineering, or whatever, that means there are a lot of men, and men do football, baseball talk, which puts me to sleep.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
I: Does it worry you that there are so few women getting Ph.D.'s? Is that the concern that you have about your entering into graduate school?
R: It worries me in that my best friends have always been women, and stuff and I'm like, "Geez, the pool is shrinking here." I mean, I've always done what people say girls shouldn't, or not the stereotypical female things. I mean, I know the stereotypes are being broken right and left here, and I'm not sure I could do this if it were 20 years ago. But, I mean, I went into sciences, ...and I hate pink. So that doesn't bother me. I'm sort of proud of myself for doing it. Why stick with the mold?
* * * * * * * * * * * *
R: [I was talking to] one of the guys at work who's 50 years old, and I said, "I'm going to grad school. I'm kind of worried 'cause I am female and they're kind of rare." He's like, "Yeah, the good old boys club is alive and well. Don't let them tell you different." In industry at least, the good old boys club is there, so it's a valid concern to be worried about it.
I: Just to make sure, by "good old boys" you mean the men in power want to keep men in power?
R: Yeah, and the sort of thing where the networks - the power of -- the people who have the power and stuff are male and they meet for golf, or whatever, they don't have a little tea party where it would be equally fine for -- it's the golfing buddies, or whatever. The networks that lead to -- they talk about networking on the job and stuff to lead to promotions and better jobs, or whatever. You find out about those jobs through the network of friends and acquaintances and business associates, and if the network where the good jobs are heard about is the good old boys' network, you're not going to hear about it if you're a good young girl.
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